Join me? Especially with self-love … which reminds me of Betty in this week’s episode. In listening back to our 2021 interview, I was surprised I asked her if she considered living together platonically with Her Guy. As if that was the only option to breaking up! Clearly, living apart together was not in my lexicon back then.
Speaking of this week’s episode, are you thumbs up or down on the judge’s ruling in Evelyn’s case? And, do you have any stories related to duplexes …. court rulings … spousal support … anything else? Please get in touch, I always love hearing from you.
Evelyn planting bushes in front of her duplex’s U-shaped driveway.
Across-the-street neighbor’s view of my duplex on an unusually snowy day.
Transcript
Welcome to February, the month when love seems to be the topic of discussion.
But as you already know, we here at Dating While Gray have romance on our minds year-round. No matter what the season, we offer advice and insights on love, sex, and relationships at age 50 and beyond.
I’m Laura Stassi, and I’m no expert. I AM a curious journalist — and, I’m navigating the older love scene myself. So I interview researchers, attorneys, therapists, relationship coaches …
I also share true stories from the trenches – my own and yours, whether divorced, widowed, or never married.
One thing I’ve learned since launching this show: Happily ever after is not an endpoint, but a journey. So occasionally, I check in with gray daters whose stories we’ve shared over the past five years. On this episode, we’re following up with a pair of particularly interesting true tales.
“Together – And Apart: Two Updates.”
It’s almost Valentine’s Day. Surely, you know that. But did you know, February 14 is also National Quirky Alone Day? I’m just finding out about it. But apparently, this was declared back in the early 2000s by a woman writer and now life coach. She coined the term quirkyalone – one word – to describe people who feel complete even though they’re uncoupled. They’d rather not date at all then be part of an unfulfilling romantic partnership.
- I appreciate the sentiment. Although I have to say, I think the label is kind of silly. Quirky means peculiar, unconventional. What’s so quirky about being solo and enjoying it? Isn’t that the goal for all of us … unless we meet someone who enhances our already wonderful and complete life?
It kind of reminds me of a Chamber of Commerce press release I came across. They used data from the U.S. Census Bureau to make a list of the cities with the highest populations of people who live alone. Only they referred to these cities as quote, “the loneliest cities.”
Seriously. Do they not understand that living alone doesn’t necessarily mean lonely. Living alone also may not mean uncoupled. And this brings me to a woman we introduced you to four years ago. We called her Betty. She was 70, longtime divorced, has two grown kids. Betty had recently retired after a big career. And she was – OK, I’ll use it — quirkyalone.
But as Betty told me, that all changed in February of 2020. That’s when she took a solo vacation to Arizona. While she was there, Betty had what was supposed to be a no-agenda meet and greet with a friend of a friend. He was a widower, no kids.
[EXCERPT FROM “THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT”]
BETTY
He took me out to dinner. We close the restaurant. And then he drove me back to our hotel. Neither one of us wanted to get out of the car. So we sat in the car for about two or three hours, talking and talking and talking and talking. When I got home, we started emailing. We started calling. We found that we were talking on the phone until 5 in the morning, like teenagers.
LAURA STASSI
Awww.
BETTY
Waking up the next morning, wanting to call him again.
[EXCERPT ENDS]
LAURA STASSI
That’s Betty from the 2021 episode, “The Kids are Alright.” We talked about how that crazy quick romance caught her grown kids off guard. It was so out of character. Within five months, despite the distance and the coronavirus lockdown, Betty left Georgia, and relocated to Arizona. She and her new love found a place in an active 55-plus community and moved in together.
In early 2022, I started wondering about the health of romantic relationships that had formed during those crazy pandemic days. Betty was top of mind. We talked for the Dating While Gray episode “Love Sick.”
[EXCERPT FROM “LOVE SICK”]
BETTY
Well, the first thing that came up that kind of raised a red flag was my sister and her husband wanted to visit. And this was when the vaccination had just come out. And everybody was looking, where can we find a vaccination? And we were with the rest of the crowd. And we were following leads and getting phone calls and watching the newspaper, trying to figure out where could we get a vaccination. And we drove to a little town that was about 60 miles out to make sure we could get our shots. And then we drove back to get our second shot. So we were being very conscientious.
My sister and her husband said — I’m sure 70 percent of the reason was because they were stir crazy too. And they said, “We’re going to come out to visit,” and that created a problem. He kind of expressed it as my willingness to expose us to COVID, and as if it were kind of a test of my commitment to keeping our new family COVID-free.
LAURA STASSI
How did you resolve it?
BETTY
She came. He was pleasant, but it wasn’t pleasant for me. It just wasn’t a pleasant overall experience because I saw it as a family thing. You know, we hadn’t seen each other, I believe in almost a year. We had both taken precautions, I wanted to see her, she wanted to see me. And she’s my sister. And he saw it as a risk. And he kind of couldn’t see beyond the risk of it all. And he saw me in a different light because he saw me as a person who was willing to put our relationship or our family, so to speak, at risk by having this visit.
LAURA STASSI
So you all had had the vaccines.
BETTY
Yes.
LAURA STASSI
Which made it feel like it was a little safer anyway, but he didn’t feel that way.
BETTY
Right. Well, yeah, the second time, the tension was even worse. And he started predicting, “Oh, this is going to be a pattern.” And my attitude was, of course it’s a pattern. This is my sister, I’m going to, yeah, I’m gonna want to see her every once in a while. There are other people I’m going to want to see. I’m gonna want to go visit my kids.
And I started realizing, you know, when you said earlier, was he a little more introverted. It’s not something we could have detected during the early days of COVID, because everything was just working like clockwork. Everybody knew we can’t go out. Everybody knew we can’t do this. We can’t do that. And things began to crumble a little bit.
LAURA STASSI
Oh, I’m sorry. Is he still that way? I mean, I know that we’ve got the boosters now, but we keep getting these variants. Is this still a big sticking point for you two about, you know, seeing other people and going out?
BETTY
Yeah. It is. I mean, it was very romantic. We called ourselves sneaking into the movies, like on senior day. And, you know, you go to the movie on senior day, and you go at 11 o’clock in the morning, and you’re the only people in the theater, and it’s romantic, and you hold hands and you eat popcorn, and you take your mask off. And it’s cute, and it’s nice. But beyond that, he’s not very — he’s not very family oriented. So my solution to seeing my family is what I did during my marriage, is see ya! Basically, I’m going to see my, whatever, fill in the blank, or I’m going to take a trip or I am going to see my girlfriend in California. And I’ll be gone a week, and it’ll be wonderful to see you when I get back. He thinks that’s inappropriate.
LAURA STASSI
Inappropriate, because you’re going without him, or inappropriate because of the pandemic?
BETTY
Inappropriate for me to travel without him.
LAURA STASSI
Oh, my goodness.
BETTY
It needs to be a joint decision because we’re gonna be going together. It’s kind of a no-win situation. My sister was a flight attendant. So she and I just would jump on the plane and go to, you name it. I mean, Morocco, or Normandy. We once went to Spain for the weekend. My longing is kind of ramping up. What do you call it — wanderlust. I’ve been sitting here for two years, and I understand there’s another strain of COVID here and that’s what — we talk about that a lot. But I’m thinking, you know, I want to go back to Hawaii. I you know, I’m ticking them off. And I’m so close to California now. I want to visit the vineyards. And he’s a homebody. Sometimes, it just feels controlling. And a lot of times — I think more times than not – it feels like he wants a wife. If I didn’t want to go, there wouldn’t be a problem.
My health is 100 percent great right now, and there are things I want to do while my health is great. While I can go to a casino without asking for a wheelchair, or go on a cruise while I can, I don’t have to use a walker. And I feel very fortunate to be my age and to not have those issues. But I know I won’t always not have those issues. And I would love to see as much of the world as I can.
LAURA STASSI
Yeah, I’m just wondering if you can see yourself continuing to live with him, but basically living separate lives. Like, where you’re no longer necessarily romantic partners, but just kind of friends, companions.
BETTY
You’d have to imagine old school. He’s very old school. I mean, that would be an affront to his dignity. You know, let’s live together and go our separate ways. Because that was one of the suggestions I’ve already made. You know, “I love you. I want to travel. You love me. You want to stay home on the sofa? I’ll see you when I get home. I’ll go where I need to go. And I’ll see you when I get home.” And that doesn’t work for him. I mean, either it’s kind of all or nothing. Either we’re together; all for one, one for all. Or we’re apart, which, you know, my term would be each to his own.
LAURA STASSI
Yeah. I’m sorry to hear this. Boy. So what’s the next step?
BETTY
Well, my thought is, is like I said, I think at some point, the road is going to be beckoning me in such a way that I can’t do this any longer. At a certain point, the scales are going to change. And the weight is going to be on the side of go and see and do and spread your wings and fly — and all that kind of stuff. But right now, the weight is on: I have someone to love and who loves rubbing my feet at night. And I have the companionship that I’ve craved and wanted. I’m not lonely ever, have someone to eat meals with and go to movies with and snuggle with in the bed at night. And, and to me, at this point, it’s worth it.
[EXCERPT ENDS]
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
LAURA STASSI
Thank you, Tammy, for nudging me to check in with Betty. Want to guess what happened next? Don’t worry, I won’t leave you hanging. Here’s Betty, reading the email she sent me.
BETTY
As I predicted, the first major opportunity to travel since Covid presented a problem. One of my favorite authors was giving a writer’s workshop near Monterey, California. The workshop was only for three days but for all the uproar it caused, it might as well have been a week in Tibet. He huffed and puffed and accused me of all manner of things, from me not being sufficiently committed to our relationship all the way to suspicions about what I would be doing at the workshop.
Despite all my protestations and affirmations about how much he knew I loved to write, the accusations, protests and guilt persisted until the day that I left. He explained to me repeatedly that any activity that didn’t further the cause of “us” was basically against us. This included visits from my family members, phone conversations with my friends, my own exercise class regimen and, of course, a trip to a writer’s conference. By the way, more than once I invited him to travel with me, enjoy the countryside, share meals together and interact during the conference but this was vehemently declined.
Of course I countered with my own theory that any activities we engage in individually would only enhance our relationship by bringing diverse experiences, perspectives, etc., to our joint life’s journey and making our relationship stronger and richer. Unfortunately, that theory fell on deaf ears.
Fast forward. After that trip — which by the way, was a great workshop and I’m glad I didn’t miss it — I moved out. I am now in an apartment in a town approximately 45 minutes away from where he lives. I usually travel to see him on Friday nights and spend the weekend. Although we have been in this arrangement for over a year, he continues to express confusion as to quote, “what we are doing” and quote, “what this is,” meaning that since we are not in a traditional doing-laundry-together, grocery-shopping-together, I-go-where-you-go-or-nobody-goes-anywhere relationship, he can’t define what we are doing in any of the old school terms he can understand.
At random times he will ask me, “where are we going with this?” Well, good lord, man, I’m 74 and you’re 76 years old! Where do you think we’re going?. When he’s in a good mood, typically after sex he’ll smile at me and say, “What am I going to do with you?” As if I’m a wayward child he can find any way to set me on the right path.
Meanwhile, I’m living in a beautiful apartment overlooking a beer garden. On pretty days (which is the only kind of days we have in Arizona) people come to the restaurant and bring their kids and dogs and eat outside, practically under my window. I sit on my balcony and people-watch. On cooler days, the beer garden lights up its fire pit. People gather around the pits and they light up the night. When there is live music, I enjoy free concerts with my own glass of wine. By the way, wine is a no-no or a guilt trip at My Guy’s house so I don’t drink on weekends.
I volunteer two days a week in the public elementary school, and the children are delightful. By the way, My Guy thinks this is tempting fate since snotty kids carry disease. There is a wonderful casino less than 15 minutes away, and I frequent that. I won’t tell you what My Guy would say about this if he knew. I have also found a women’s group of Co-Dependents Anonymous that meets weekly and it’s a fantastic support. You can imagine what My Guy thinks about this. Why would anyone need Co-Dependents Anonymous when they can have him, right?
In summary, I have achieved a balance in life that I cherish. During the week I do as I please, enjoying my apartment, loving on my kids, staying as long as I like at the casino, exploring restaurants. By the way, I’ve never had a problem eating alone, especially if the wine is good. I attend various fitness classes. I have had my daughter, my sister and my son come to Arizona to visit. I was grateful to have a welcoming home for my daughter when her lease ended and she was between jobs. She’s now moved to Colorado, and I have made several visits to her there.
On the weekends, I am happy playing house with My Guy. We go to see a movie or watch Netflix at home. We cook together, we work jigsaw puzzles together, and he regales me with stories of his very interesting past life. He sometimes references the quote, “wild things” I must be doing while we are apart, but he has accepted to a great degree that he has no control over me during the parts of the week we are apart. My favorite part of the weekend is when the sun goes down and we head into the bedroom, where I am grateful for the warmth of his body. Now, I am living my life on my own terms.
LAURA STASSI
Wow. Can I just say, way to go Betty. Sexual intimacy and companionship on the weekend. And during the week, doing whatever you want. Congratulations, Betty, for living a full and happy, custom-built life.
Speaking of couples who don’t live together, and custom-building a life, remember the woman we called Evelyn? She built a duplex with her romantic partner … and that made her alimony paying ex-husband very unhappy. We have an update on the court case. That’s after a brief break.
BREAK
LAURA STASSI
We’re back with “Together – And Apart: Two Updates.” I’m Laura Stassi, and this next story really struck a chord with me – as a romantic partner hopeful, as someone who received spousal support … and, as a duplex owner.
Yup, I’m talking about Evelyn, from the “One Heart, Two Homes” episode. It was all about Live Apart Together relationships, or L-A-T. Some people say LAT. And it refers to committed romantic couples who don’t live together 24/7. They might be legal spouses, or they may not be. And one reason is that remarriage could affect a financial settlement from a previous union.
That’s the situation with Evelyn. We’re not revealing her real name or where she lives – and please note that divorce laws differ from state to state.
We also won’t share why Evelyn’s marriage of almost 25 years ended in divorce, except to say, she believes she had no other choice. She and her ex have five kids, including two with lifelong special needs. Evelyn has custody. And so one of the terms of her divorce agreement was that she’d receive child support to help care for these two grown kids. She also was to receive spousal support for a certain period of time unless she remarried or lived with a romantic partner – cohabitation.
After their divorce, Evelyn starts dating. She meets a man who lives in a town about 45 minutes away. They fall in love … and here’s an excerpt from our first conversation, where she starts by describing the evolution of their living arrangement.
[EXCERPT FROM “ONE LOVE, TWO HOMES”]
EVELYN
The priority was, first of all, kids had to graduate from certain schools, programs had to be the right programs for my children. I looked at things, and I assessed things. And actually, the city that this man lived in had better programs for my special needs kids. And so I looked at, it was, you know, years in the planning: Okay, when one graduates from college, so he’s gotten all the way through high school. And there’s this change and this change, and this is the exact, appropriate time for me to move if I want to move. And so I got a rental house, and I made the move.
LAURA STASSI
So you are living in a rental house, and you’re very close to Scott, but it’s also good for your kids. It’s good for your personal life, it’s good for your family life.
EVELYN Mm-hmm. And then I say, okay, I’m happy with this move. And being here, I’m going to buy a house. And so I bought a house. I found a lovely house that again, was absolutely just exactly what my children needed. And it was a duplex. And over the course of time would say to Scott, you know, you could buy the house next door, you could buy the other side of the duplex, and you could live next door to me because I have no intention of getting married. And he would say, that style just doesn’t do it for me. You know, I don’t like that style house. And so years go by and it’s fine. You know, we live a couple miles apart.
LAURA STASSI
Then one day, Scott hears about two lots side by side that are coming on the market. He checks into them and finds out because of zoning restrictions, two houses can be built, but only if they’re configured as a duplex. They go for it. Evelyn and Scott each purchase a lot. They start the building approval processes and begin working with the designer.
EVELYN
You know, we went through COVID and we had delays on everything. But one of the things that happened during the delays was we lost three parents. He lost both his parents, I lost mine. And what we learned from that was how as people are aging, you have to have a home that you can live in and if you want to have caregivers come in. And so each of us made plans with our homes that one day would be something that you can age in, and looking at your future and saying, what do I need that I can live in for the rest of my life?
So he’s having his thoughts on that. I’m having my thoughts on that. And then we’re coming together, and we’re each building the thing that we want. We’re hiring one builder, so we had to choose a builder. And the builder had to — while we had separate contracts and all this kind of thing, like we were going to use the same roofing. The plumbers were the same plumbers but separate contracts with them.
Golly, I mean, I am thinking back on it, how really that was stressful, making all those choices and decisions; at the same time, very exciting. Ended up with, you know, two homes that share a firewall in the middle of the garages. So they’re attached at the garages. He has his, and I have mine. The driveway, he’s got his side, I have mine, but they’re also connected so that it’s easier to back out and get around. There is actual division between the two patios. But because we choose to leave that open, it ends up being instead of two separate patios, it’s one large patio.
Each of us got exactly what we wanted, and we get to be close to each other, but not living in the same house. For me, there’s nobody telling me what to do. Nobody who can complain about my housekeeping, or the way I do things, and I have my own space, it belongs to me. The additional thing is by keeping everything separate, my children have investment in this house. This is their house.
LAURA STASSI
Finally, in December of 2022, the duplex is ready for occupancy.
EVELYN
My understanding of the law was, was that cohabitating, living together would be if you shared a domicile, if you shared utilities or other financial accounts. And if you lived together as married.
LAURA STASSI
None of which is happening in a duplex.
EVELYN
None of which is happening. So I thought, I’m safe because I’m not doing any of those things. But a few months into living here, I got socked with some pretty aggressive attorney letters, accusing me of cohabiting, you know. And my response was, the lots are separately deeded. We had separate construction contracts with the builder, we each paid for our own homes, we maintain separate utilities and wells, we maintain separate bank accounts and finances. Our driver’s licenses, insurance, and all other documents reflect that we live at different addresses.
We’re always careful to represent what is true. We are not married, and we do not live together. So yes, that’s the law. But what you find out is that people can challenge you on that. They can sue you over something like that. They can put you through a prolonged, expensive process of discovery that they can ask for all kinds of things that you would never imagine could be demanded of you.
LAURA STASSI
Because your ex-husband is saying, if you’re living together, that means I no longer have to pay you spousal support.
EVELYN
That’s it. What my ex-husband’s attorney and he are trying to say, is that this qualifies as cohabiting because there is — I’m going to struggle with this word now. There is mutual interdependence. So that we are dependent on one another socially, financially, sexually. Because we eat dinner together, because we sometimes sleep in the same bed, because my children like him, that we are functioning as a family and therefore, we are cohabiting. I am fortunate that at this particular moment in my life, because of selling my prior home, I had enough money to be able to defend myself here.
[EXCERPT ENDS]
LAURA STASSI
At the end of that April 2024 episode, we noted that another court hearing was about a month out. Evelyn was hoping that would be an opportunity to propose that her ex-husband drop his lawsuit and reimburse her substantial attorney fees into a financial account earmarked for their two special needs kids.
Well, that court hearing came and went. Followed by … if I’m counting right, two more in July, and two more in August. And then, finally, in December, Evelyn called me with some news.
EVELYN
I received the ruling.
LAURA STASSI
Okay, so what was it?
EVELYN
So I was disappointed. I want to say that my attorney’s case, and she did a great summary that she wrote up, was based on looking at the laws, each of the, or looking at the situation, looking at the specific things one by one. Is there financial interdependence? And there’s no evidence of any shared accounts. We operate, financially, completely separately. There was evidence that the two homes are separate, which was my ex-husband alleged that they were one property.
The fact that they had a whole bunch of Facebook posts where we referred to one another in glowing terms is evidence of a happy dating relationship.
LAURA STASSI
A committed partnership, but not a marriage.
EVELYN
And my attorney also did a good job of laying out that if you live, say in an apartment building, there’s lots of different apartments in that building. Just because they’re in the same building doesn’t make it cohabitation.
LAURA STASSI
Right.
EVELYN
So we laid all that out and I was very happy with, with her summary. And I thought, well, this is a great case. But the decision that came back was that I am cohabiting. And I think for me looking at that, , the judge in this case was looking at it and saying, for purposes of alimony, it looks like you are living as husband and wife. So maybe not physically cohabiting, but it’s close enough that he should not have to pay alimony anymore.
I don’t like that decision. I think that takes agency away from women. But I also am very grateful that in the decision, the judge said, I’m not going to make her pay back alimony. I’m not going to back it up. It’ll be from this date, right? From this date. And she said that specific to, I’m recognizing that this woman has two special needs children living in her home for probably for the rest of their lives. And so she wasn’t going to try to hurt me financially. She did not order me to pay his attorney’s fees, which he really wanted.
LAURA STASSI
So the judge decided that you are in fact living together. Your ex no longer has to pay spousal support, but he also wanted his attorney’s fees paid and he wanted a refund of the alimony he had already paid from the time that you were in the duplex plus interest, and the judge said no to both of those.
EVELYN
Yes, actually, he wanted more than that. They wanted me to admit that I was attempting to defraud my ex-husband, which I was not trying to do. And they essentially wanted to ruin my truthful reputation, my honesty. And I wasn’t going to do that.
LAURA STASSI Can you offer any advice to anyone else contemplating an LAT relationship, living apart together relationship?
EVELYN
If you have a marital settlement agreement that has in there some sort of stipulations with regard to cohabiting, I would say look very carefully at what those stipulations are. And maybe check with an attorney. If you don’t have a terrible relationship with your ex and your ex is not vicious in regards to litigation and stuff. I mean, mine was an attorney who already had shown that he would be vicious in litigation. It’s funny, ‘cause I was warned a long time ago about something like this. And I was like, no, the law protects me. I was just wrong.
I would go all the way back to though, if you are in the process of divorce, make sure you understand precisely what is in your marital settlement agreement. Mine was done under duress at the last moment because my attorney ex didn’t want to agree until there was a judge involved and then he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ll agree, I’ll agree. And it was all done in a matter of a couple of hours. So work on getting the agreement that you want. Try to get an agreement rather than going to court and having a judge decide and try to make sure that the definitions in it are in there to protect you. It starts there.
EVELYN
One more thought here is that I am very happy with my decision to build a duplex beside my partner. I am real happy with that decision, and I wouldn’t change that decision. So for whatever I’ve had to go through to get here, that’s all on my ex-husband and his emotional problems. Not on me. Like I said, I’m very happy. I love this whole setup, this whole situation. I would definitely recommend it. And I think of all the different people that know about or have come to visit my home and my partner’s home and have said, this is awesome. I wish I had this — married couples who have said, you know what? I wish I had a separate home. so it’s a great solution. I am very happy.
LAURA STASSI
Wow. I have to say, I find this chilling. A duplex is one structure – with two separate living units. So basically, the judge who ruled in Evelyn’s case considered factors other than — you know, physically living together — to determine that Evelyn and her partner were presenting as a married couple. And therefore, Evelyn’s spousal support was terminated.
OK all you real estate and love buffs. What do you think? Would the outcome have been the same if Evelyn and her partner lived next door to each other in single-family homes, condos, or townhouses?
Something to ponder if a romantic split, or a connection, is on your Valentine’s Day horizon.
END CREDITS
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