Psychotherapist Jeanne Safer wrote “I Love You, But I Hate Your Politics” in 2019. Since then, at least two of the red-blue couples she profiled have divorced. Jeanne herself is in a mixed marriage. The self-described liberal Democrat has been married for more than 40 years to conservative Richard Brookhiser, a historian and senior editor at National Review.

When I called Jeanne earlier this summer to set up an interview for “Love Across the Divide,” Richard answered the phone. As we got to chatting, he freely told me his conscience would not allow him to vote for either Trump or the Democratic nominee. (At the time, it was President Joe Biden.) I have to wonder how many other so-called never-Trumpers did the same, and whether it would have impacted the outcome of the election.

You’ll hear some from Jeanne in next week’s episode, as bonus content to the original DWG/APM special. Meantime, here are some of her tips (edited for space) to “stop a political fight before it starts.”

 

• Do not raise your voice … it’s a guaranteed way to escalate hostility and makes your opponent automatically shut down and stop listening.
• Never thrust an unsolicited partisan article or link from your side of a contentious issue on your mate, relative, or friend.
• If the two of you can’t talk about it, don’t talk about it.
• Accept that political fights are unwinnable.
• If someone who agrees with you publicly mocks or insults the political opinions or character or your partner, it is your obligation to defend your partner. This must be mutual. Not to do so is rightly interpreted as betrayal.

If this final bullet point has you thinking about Kellyanne and George Conway, here’s where I tell you that after paying full price for, and reading intently, her thick memoir, I felt more sympathetic to her than I expected. I emailed and phoned her publicist requesting an interview, promising that I wouldn’t ask her about anything other than what she’d already written about in detail. When I received no response, I discovered she had voiced the audiobook. So then I emailed and asked if I could air approved excerpts of her reading. The publicist finally, and quickly, replied, saying they would not approve and did not want to be featured or included. Reader, I tried!

 

 

LAURA STASSI

Hi, Laura here. For the past several months, I’ve been thinking about politics and love. I wondered: If romantic relationships are built on shared values, does that mean two people need to be aligned politically to have a deep connection and strong bond? 

My parents weren’t always in sync in the voting booth. And remember James Carville and Mary Matalin? Their opposing views were the plot point of a true-life love story. They met in the ‘90s, when Mary was working to get the first President Bush re-elected. James was a top adviser to rival Bill Clinton. 

Mary and James wound up tying the knot and are still together, two kids and 30 years later. But these are more polarized times. Is making and maintaining a love connection across the aisle even possible? 

I talked with older Americans navigating red-blue romance … some more successfully than others. Plus, I sought out expert advice on bridging political differences in kinder and gentler ways. With those interviews, Dating While Gray teamed with American Public Media for a one-hour radio broadcast special called “Love Across the Divide.” It aired on public radio stations across the country in the weeks leading up to the presidential election.

Today, we’re bringing you Part 1 of that special. I hope it inspires and encourages all of us to turn toward each other and embrace tolerance, no matter which side of the aisle – if any — we may find ourselves aligned with. Let’s show our leaders how to do it! Thanks for listening.

***

LAURA STASSI

 Politics, it’s one of those topics one should never discuss in public, at least that’s what I was taught. Maybe you were too, but that was a time before social media. It’s now so easy and tempting to share our opinions, even if that means arguing and name calling supposed loved ones and strangers alike.

The no-politics policy was also a time before the advent of online dating. This technology enables love seekers to cast a wide geographic net to meet potential partners. We want to know what they look like, if they prefer the beach over the mountains, and more and more we want to know political leanings, especially if we’re older.

I’m Laura Stassi, host of the podcast dating while Gray. A study by the Pew Research Center found online daters 50 and older are more likely than younger daters to say it’s very important a person’s profile include political affiliation, sure there were divisions before the 2016 clash between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, but the gap seems to have grown even wider, and many Americans who have previously been neutral or uninterested now feel like they really need to choose a side.

According to Pew, singles looking for dating partners are outright rejecting anyone who’s chosen the other side.

LYNN

So I’d like to think that I’m not a partisan, and in my particular opinion, right now is that, you know, there’s Democrat, Republican, then there’s crazy.

LAURA STASSI

That’s a psychotherapist and social worker we’re calling Lynn. She describes herself as open minded, even while reflexively passing on conservative dating profiles. But then Lynn meets one of her neighbors, which leads her to question how tolerant she actually is.

LYNN

I’m one of the few people in my neighborhood who doesn’t own a dog, and I’m absolutely convinced that the only way to make friends in my neighborhood is if you own a dog. So when I go for a walk around my neighborhood, I make it a point to say hi to the dogs. And this guy had a dog that was the same breed of dog that I grew up with, and I hadn’t seen one like that, so I didn’t see the person. I just saw the dog, and then I asked him about his dog, and he turned around, and we just started talking, and I asked him he had some insignia on his cap, and I asked him about it, and it turned out we were both in the same field. just like, isn’t that interesting, right? He had served time in the military, and I was an Army brat, and my daughter was in the same branch of service that he was. Like, there was one thing after another after another. And I thought to myself, Oh, I’m sure he’s married, you know, like, I mean, he has to be.

And I looked, I didn’t see a wedding ring or anything. And then he said something about his daughters. I said, So you live with your daughters? He said, no, I live alone. And he’s stressed. I live alone. And I thought I was I thought, we’ll get this, yeah, talking code, right? So I said, yeah, I live by myself over there, you know? And I pointed, and we kept talking for a while, and I said, Well, it’s really nice to meet you. And I was the one who said, Would you like to get together for coffee sometimes, and that’d be great. I’d love that good for you. And I said, Well, how do I get in touch with you? And he said, he started to reach into a shirt. He said, I don’t have a card, and I don’t carry my cell phone on walks. And I didn’t either.

So he told me his name, which was an easy to remember name, and he said, Just go Google me. He told me the name of his company and that kind of thing. So I went home, you know, I thought it was, is there a time limit? This is too fast to do, that’s what, you know. So I came home and I Googled his name, I found his email, and I thought, Well, I’m gonna just take just to look at his Facebook page, and it said conservative.

And I thought, of course, this was too good to be true. And I talked to him for 20 minutes, and he was really a nice guy, like, like, a nice guy.

LAURA STASSI

And that surprised you.

LYNN

Yeah, like, well, yes, it was like, How can you be a conservative and a nice guy, and that’s where I started thinking about I just thought, God had a sense of humor, because if I go on a dating site, I don’t look at people like that. And so I never if I’d seen him on a dating site, I would have just swiped left. And this was a case of, oh, I don’t know what it means. He used to work with people with disabilities. I mean, he has a dog. He’s, I mean, like, he’s, you know, like, all this stuff like that. And I thought, Oh, this is a conundrum.

I’m not one of those people that thought I would never date somebody who voted for somebody different, or was a different political party. It depends on who the person was. like, if who they voted for was reflective of their intelligence and their values, versus that I disagreed with their values, then that would be a problem. But I would never just dislike somebody because of their color or their party or something like that. But these days, when I see conservative, I like, I meet, I go crazy.

LAURA STASSI

Okay, so, you know he’s a conservative, and you know he’s very nice, and you know he’s smart, which kind of surprised you.

LYNN

We’ve had two coffee dates, and I was sitting there thinking he was going to judge me, you know, because they, in my mind, conservatives, are all judgmental. I was sitting there thinking, is this all going really nicely, but what’s going to happen when he finds out I’m a liberal? I decided I had to broach the subject. I said, Well, you know, when I went to look up your name, I did notice that you were conservative on your Facebook page. And I said, I want to out myself right now, that I’m probably in the category of, you know, liberal or progressive. We started talking about it. He was raised by Truman Democrats in the Midwest, and he told me that he had voted for McGovern and he was a Democrat. And I said, you know, I would be really fascinated to know how a McGovern Democrat gets to be a conservative.

And I said, I don’t have time now, but I would really, you know, I would really like that. He actually said to me in a text message, he said something about it’s uncanny how much we have in common, except for our political worldview.

LAURA STASSI

He’s definitely right, but is he right?

LYNN

That’s a great question. I mean, this is going to be a total experiment.

LAURA STASSI

Lynn made a new friend, but ultimately, the neighbor was not a love connection. She tells me their red-blue divide isn’t really an issue, it’s more a general lack of momentum. This real-life encounter has Lynn rethinking her online dating parameters. Still, she’s finding it hard to give a chance to self-described red voters.

That’s not the experience of a widow named Vicki. Like Lynn. Vicki tends to lean left, but she agrees to a blind date with her friend’s friend, Peter. He’s divorced and leans right. In fact, conservative politics is Peter’s bread and butter.

I talked with Vicki and Peter around Thanksgiving in 2020. Joe Biden had won the election. Then- President Trump was contesting it, and I wanted to hear how Vicky and Peter are navigating any political tensions in their personal life since meeting about a year after the 2016 race.

PETER

Vicki and I agreed to meet for drinks at a place that was convenient for both of us, and we must have talked for Two, three hours. Yeah, and I thought she was charming, delightful and entertaining and gorgeous. Well, I mean, that goes without saying. It’s, it’s radio, so you can’t see, but trust me, trust me on this one. But I didn’t think she was interested in me. And this is actually something we discussed the other day. You know, how could you know after one encounter whether or not it’s something you want to pursue. And having been on the online thing and having the coffees and the dinners, I know easily how quickly people can make up their minds. Now, this is not someone I want to be with, and I thought she was entertained, but that we didn’t, that she was not interested in another date, and I was very disappointed. And then, you know, in saying goodbye, she made it clear that she wanted me to ask her out again, so I was very pleased.

VICKI

I didn’t have any idea if it would go anywhere. I mean, it was two hours of conversation. I’m in sales. I can talk to a wall if I need to. So I had a lovely evening. I enjoyed the company, but I didn’t know enough to say whether or not this was someone I wanted to have a serious relationship with, or entertain anything other than, yeah, another, you know, another evening out. And, you know, get to know each other.

One of the unfortunate factors of dating after loss is you don’t really know how to date. And I think everybody’s in that same boat. I mean, whether it’s a divorce or a death, it’s probably been a very long time at our age since anybody’s been dating, so we really don’t know how to do it.

PETER

Now, I was never any good at me to begin with. I got married at 23.

VICKI

To me, it was just like, you know, I found him interesting. We had great conversation. And, you know, I’d like to see him again. I don’t know if I want it to become anything other than just go out again, but,  I didn’t know I was supposed to know that yet.

LAURA STASSI

So before you went out with him, did you know what he does for a living?

VICKI

Yeah.

PETER Well, yeah, that was part of that’s actually how I knew our mutual friend.

LAURA STASSI

Were there any red flags?

VICKI

My parents are very involved in politics, and I don’t necessarily share theirs. My husband had very strong opinions, and I didn’t necessarily share his.

LAURA STASSI

 We’ll hear more from Peter and Vicki about navigating their red-blue divide. That’s after the break.

BREAK

 LAURA STASSI

 I’m Laura Stassi, host of Dating While Gray, and we’re back with Part 1 of our election season special with American Public Media, “Love Across the Divide.” We’re picking up with Peter and Vicki, who share how they’re navigating political differences in their romantic relationship.

 VICKI

I did notice in the you know, the online dating profiles for so many people, they would just you’d be adamant. No Trumpers know this. Know that if you’re a Trumper, don’t even bother. If you don’t believe in the patriotism of Trump, don’t bother. Am I, how has this become such a criteria for people differing opinions? One, they make for much more interesting conversation. And two, I think that’s kind of how the country works. People have differing opinions, and if we all live in this world where we only hear the same opinion, then I don’t think it becomes very productive.

And this particular president has been a little bit more polarizing than others, a lot more. And it’s it comes into play with the two of us often. I mean, we have some, some rather spirited conversations, but at the end of the day, it’s a conversation. And I, you know, as much as I would like to change his perspective, I know I’m not going to. He has held that long well before he met me, and I’m comforted a little bit in that there’s logic and rationale behind it. It’s not the blind, you know, I’m going to wave my flag and do it without questioning or without introspection. And I think that makes it really important. I think if he was somebody out there that was just blindly waving flag, I don’t know that we would have made it.

PETER

First of all, I’m enormously patient. Coming up in my field, and even before that, I used to do politics before I opined on them for a living. And I used to think that my job was to convince everybody else that I was right they were wrong, and to force an agreement from them. And then one day, someone who I had great respect for said that I needed to understand that people have a right to be wrong.

And what he meant was, in a robust, vibrant American democracy, you don’t want everyone thinking the same thing, and people are entitled to their own opinions. From my perspective, it might be wrong. From their perspective, it’s right, but they have the right to their opinion. And so it dawned on me that really what my job was, was to present a case for a particular candidate or particular issue or particular legal opinion, whatever it might be, with reason and facts as best I possibly could, and hopefully persuade someone who either had not yet made up their mind or who was aligned along a different access that in fact, I was correct, and I raised my children that way, that you have you have a right to your own opinions. You don’t have a right to your own facts.

LAURA STASSI

That’s interesting you say that because I feel like, from what I’m hearing, and I’m sort of poking to be devil’s advocate, you have a right to your own opinion, but you don’t have a right to your own facts. There are a lot of Republicans who could not vote for President Trump for this time around, because there seems to be alternative facts are okay.

PETER

Well, alternative facts is a legal term that it’s legitimate. When you’re in a jury trial, and one advocate will ask the jury to consider a certain set of facts, the opposing counsel may have an alternative set of facts that they would like considered by the jury, alternative facts as it was taken and manipulated after Kellyanne Conway use, the phrase is a euphemism for making things up.

VICKI

Well, because too often in this political cycle, that’s a lot what it’s felt like, is it that a lot of things because the facts are not shared. If there are alternative facts, it would be really useful if they could be shared, because we don’t see them, and I don’t really want to get into a whole thing about the media, but because the alternative facts are not shared, it feels like outright made-up statements.

 PETER

I will concede that that’s true, that there have been statements made by the president and by people who work for the president that cannot be backed up factually. But I will also say that that’s not unusual, and so that’s some of the things that we talk about and where we find common ground, even though we may differ politically is trying to keep the conversation focused on facts.

LAURA STASSI

Is there some topic that you all just try to come to an agreement on and cannot?

PETER

I don’t think we have to agree.

VICKI

I don’t think there’s many that we agree on.

PETER

I love Vicki, and I respect her, and I think that she doesn’t give herself enough credit for the information that she has stored in her brain. She says that I, you know, I win on the fact points, but I don’t have to agree with her, and she doesn’t have to agree with me for us to have a successful relationship.

VICKI

I think there’s a couple of topics that I mean, I won’t, I won’t even parse, you know, go, won’t go down the path, because I know that it will become, because it crosses beyond the political divide, like, say, abortion for one. I mean, we’ve had a couple of conversations about it, we have very differing opinions about that. And it is, you know, it is both a political and a religious component for him. And I’m like, okay, you know what? I’m not going to go down that path. I know I’m never, I’m never changing his mind on that one, ever. I mean, I can’t imagine any scenario in which he would be in support of it. And you know that’s fine. You do you. But I know that. You know that’s not, because that’s such an emotional landmine. There’s no point in going down that one.

LAURA STASSI

Are there some issues that you think have become politicized over the years that should not be a political it should be humane.

PETER

Oh, yeah, yes. There are all kinds of things in the political arena that don’t belong there.

VICKI

Abortion.

PETER

Well, again, we may disagree on that, but there’s too much politics. You know, we’re supposed to be a self governing people. The founders determined that we were sovereign. The people were sovereign. That’s why the Constitution begins, we the people. That is an important idea. It was a revolutionary idea at the time. It’s the idea that lots of other parts of the world seek, at some point, to emulate. But that doesn’t mean that every conversation has to be political. It also doesn’t mean you have to win every conversation. And one of the things that bothers me about my industry is that they now, rather than cover the different sides of a story, they cover politics like they cover sports, because it’s easy. You know, this team is ahead, this team is behind.

Bases loaded. You know, three two strikes. This is all easy to write about, and then we can go have drinks or play golf. But if you want to write about Joe Biden’s health care plan, you have to read Joe Biden’s health care plan. And I don’t recommend that anybody, unless you have insomnia, because it will just put you right out, as will most public policy documents. But it’s hard to do.

But what that does is it moves politics into the who’s ahead, who’s behind, who won, who lost, matrix –away from the need defined consensus that most all of us can agree about, you know, the founders put so many checks and balances into the federal system and into the federalism that they gave us.

VICKI

But it sure feels like a lot of that’s gone away.

PETER

There are assaults on it, because some people aren’t getting what they want quickly enough.

LAURA STASSI

All right, so I want to talk about things that clearly you’re on one side. And I assume you voted for two different candidates, yeah, what is it about your relationship that invigorates you, inspires you?

VICKI

I think it’s the mutual respect, you know? I think that that was something that was very important to me in my marriage, you know, partnership and respect and friendship. I think are three, you know, three baselines that if you don’t have those three, you don’t have a hope of anything more, for a future, for the romantic side, you have to have those three before the rest can become a possibility.

PETER

I think Vicki’s totally amazing, and I consider myself lucky that she cares for me as much as she does. That’s a new feeling for me. That’s certainly part of it. And this may not be the answer that you’re looking for, but I think that there’s a mutual recognition that our relationship is the most important thing, that the politics, the economics, the friendship she has that she brings to the table, the friendships that I have that are brought to the table, all of those are secondary to the relationship itself. And that if we get out of sorts on something, that the need for reconciliation is more important than the need for being right, that there’s nothing that is so important, or at least that we have encountered so far, that is so important, that the need to be right overcomes our ability to coexist as partners in our universe where we’re both generally pulling in the same direction.

 LAURA STASSI

Is there anything else I need to know? Is there anything else you want to say to each other?

VICKI

I hate your politics, but I love you. I don’t hate them.

PETER

Okay, that’s, that’s not the way I would have put it. I’m just gonna say I love you, and I’m very lucky to have you in my life.

LAURA STASSI

Vicki and Peter are still together. In fact, they’re now engaged. They’ve looked for a place to buy together but haven’t had any luck. So for now, they’re maintaining separate homes, which suits both of them. Vicki wrote in an email that, quote, paperwork or not, we’ve built an incredible and growing family in the time we’ve spent together. We’ve had three children get married and watched two become parents. There’s a third grandchild on the way.

Vicky and Peter also, quote, continue to treat one another with love, care and respect, acknowledging our differences and celebrating our commonalities. We learn from each other every day.

I have to say, I really admire that, and I’m speaking as someone who’s lately done a lot of Facebook unfollowing and unfriending. I don’t even want to get into it. How do we engage in politically charged conversations, especially with loved ones?

KEN PAGE

One tip is that there have to be many conversations. Not one. This is not a conversation about where you plant the flag, and that’s it.

LAURA STASSI

That’s psychotherapist Ken Page. We’ll be hearing a lot more from him. Plus, listeners share how they feel about labels like feminist, and woke. And, more studies on romance and political differences.

That’s all coming up next week, on Part  2 of “Love Across the Divide,” the Dating While Gray radio broadcast special with American Public Media. See you then.

END CREDITS

Dating While Gray’s audio production and mix is by Steve Lack: Audio. Theme music by D. Peterschmidt. Please like and follow Dating While Gray wherever you get podcasts. That way, you’ll never miss an episode. And, if you’re so inclined, leave a review letting everyone know what you love about us. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com. That’s where you can find Bonus Content, along with links to send me questions, comments, tips, and true stories – through email and voice mail. You know I love hearing from you. You can also sign up for the free Dating While Gray e-newsletter, delivered most Fridays to your inbox.

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I’m Laura Stassi. Thanks so much for listening.

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