Transcript
This is Dating While Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex and Relationships. I’m Laura Stassi. On this show, of course we talk about dating. It’s right there in the title.
As the subtitle indicates, we talk about other stuff, too. There are myriad issues involved with seeking, finding, and keeping love in the later years of life.
In almost one hundred shows, I’ve talked with experts and everyday folks alike. Many of you have thoughts about what you’ve heard.
I’m sharing some in today’s episode, as I open the “Listener Mail Bag.”
I started Dating While Gray after emerging from Married Land to Singles World. I was in my late fifties. I had no idea who else around my age might be looking for love … or even if it was possible to find it. The show premiered in 2020 … and it quickly hit a nerve. Immediately, I got emails and voice mails from people all over the country … eventually all over the world. Commenting on something they heard … sharing an experience … or asking a question. Including these:
LISTENER VOICE MAILS
LAURA STASSI
Thanks, listeners. As for that last comment about the “best online site” …well, it doesn’t seem that long ago that everyone our age was basically on the big three: Match, E-Harmony, Our Time. But now I’m talking with gray daters who’ve tried a variety of sites. Hinge, Facebook Dating, OKCupid, Tinder, Christian Mingle, Meet Mindful, Silver Singles … which ones did I forget? And honestly, it doesn’t seem like one is better than another.
As one listener wrote: I had really good luck with Bumble, but Zoosk was like the wild west. It was recommended to me by a fellow widow who is dating up a storm. Maybe it’s a regional thing. She’s from Vermont and if her date passed to a second, she would test them on a miles-long snowshoe hike to see if they were worth a third date.
Ooh, great idea!
Dating While Gray listeners have also tried Feeld, which is for people open-minded about exploring gender and sexuality outside the traditional norms.
In fact one woman emailed to say she’s quote, met some very nice people who are intelligent and open-minded and different from others I’ve known, which I like. Had some new experiences, made new friends, even went through the biggest heartbreak of my life. Still processing that.”
Thanks for sharing, listener, I really need to follow up for a podcast interview.
Speaking of sex, you know I like to explore the topic whenever possible. Because there is so much to talk about. One conversation I had in early spring got a lot of people’s attention. It was with a woman we called Cate, for the episode “Sex on My Mind.” This is what Cate said about why her longtime marriage was ending.
(EPISODE EXCERPT)
CATE
Well, the first time that I really seriously thought about ending the marriage was around seven years in. I had three children by then. And he one night in bed confessed that he had been looking at pornography. So for me, that was huge. I hated pornography. I still do. I don’t like what it does to men. I don’t like what it represents. And I felt like it was an invasion on my marriage. I felt like it was he was actually cheating on me. I think the marriage bed should be kept pure – and that means from pornography as well. And so I was ready to leave.
LAURA STASSI
You weren’t suspicious or anything. But he felt burdened, I guess, and wanted to tell you that he had been looking at pornography.
CATE
That’s right. That’s right. I was not suspicious. He told me and I had a shock reaction. I actually called my friend, who is a psychologist. I called her in the middle of the night just shaking, like after he told me I was shaking. And I, I was in shock. Because I just felt like it was the hugest attack, like this was the end of my marriage is what I felt — marriage as I pictured it, I should say. A lot of women will put up with pornography. A lot of women don’t mind. They don’t care. But for me, it was super offensive.
LAURA STASSI
I’m just curious, do you think that your reaction would have been the same if he had confessed that he had feelings for a real-life person?
CATE
Absolutely, it would have been the same, I think, especially back then. I was very insecure because I had been hurt many times. So I was looking for a forever love and someone to feel super secure with, and that was again just whipped out from underneath me.
LAURA STASSI
A betrayal.
CATE
It was a betrayal. It is a betrayal. What I did the very next day was, I started every day taking out thousands of dollars to go and take the kids and leave. The bank swallowed my card, and I couldn’t get any more money. By this time, he caught on and said, well, let’s go to counseling. So we did, and I also demanded that he get tested by a psychologist who specializes in sexual deviance to make sure he wasn’t sexually deviant and a danger to my kids. And he did, he jumped through all of the hoops and I stayed.
LAURA STASSI
I’m thinking some people might wonder, was it — I hate to say vanilla pornography?
CATE
It was then. I think it still is. Fast forward to now, he’s still addicted.
LAURA STASSI
If he hadn’t told you, would you have thought okay, why aren’t we as close physically as we used to be? Or did his behaviors with you seem different?
CATE
Yes. At first it was demanding more and more and more and couldn’t get enough. And I was going hold on, and he would get insulted. You know, you’re not giving me enough — and complain and everything. But then after a while, like years later, let’s say 15 years later, it was more a loss of interest. Or — trying not to get too graphic but during, I would notice it was a lot different. It was a not a closeness, it was more a shallow, mechanical act.
LAURA STASSI
You didn’t feel like it was bringing you closer emotionally?
CATE
No, no. It was a duty. it was a task — get it done and get away from me. That kind of thing.
LAURA STASSI
But you stayed. I mean, it was only recently that you left. Yes?
CATE
That’s right. He jumped through all those hoops. He had to go to see a psychologist, we had to go to marriage counseling, he had to work on his problem. And, you know, the whole time I thought he was. And I thought he’d be getting better. And I didn’t even want to talk about it, because it brought a trauma response in me to even talk about it. So I would rarely bring it up because I’d get so unsettled. But then I would always find a magazine, or I’d get some indicator that it was still a problem throughout all those years. And that would send me far away again.
(EPISODE EXCERPT ENDS)
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
LAURA STASSI
A similar response came from a man in his early 50s. He wrote, QUOTE: When I saw a sex episode in my feed, I had to download it and listen. Who doesn’t want a window into other people’s sex lives? But I have to say, I was disappointed so much time was spent on the woman who was traumatized when she learned her ex-husband used porn, and she equated it to cheating. There’s a big difference between looking at porn and having sex with another person in real life. You provided no pushback at all. The woman also said something about how some women hated when their men look at porn and some women tolerate it. What about those women who enjoy looking at porn themselves? End Quote.
Women who enjoy porn … that brings me to this caller:
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
LAURA STASSI
OK, to set the record straight … I believe there is nothing inherently wrong with watching porn between consenting adults. I did not push back on Cate because she was sharing her opinion. And for her, porn use equals betrayal.
What I see as the real problem is that Cate and her now-ex were not on the same page. But instead of having that conversation, or getting help with that conversation, she insisted he stop… and he pretended that he HAD stopped. THAT’s a disconnect.
On that episode, I also interviewed intimacy coach Anna Marti. We did not talk about porn then, but she got in touch after hearing Cate’s story. Here’s what she said.
ANNA MARTI VOICE MAIL
LAURA STASSI
Thanks, Anna. And speaking of experts … I’ve had Michael Castleman on the show a couple of times. His most recent book is “Sizzling Sex for Life: Everything You need to know to Maximize Erotic Pleasure at Age.” In it, he includes information that he says attempts to address women’s concerns over their male partner’s porn habit.
Michael also says he’s heard from many women in anguish – his word – because their male partners would rather self-sex to porn than engage in partner lovemaking. Michael calls that a red flag.
I think that’s enough porn talk, for now. But we’ve got more about Michael Castleman and how his comments on sexual performance impacted at least one listener. Plus, we get really angry.
That’s all after the break.
BREAK
I’m Laura Stassi, and we’re back with the “Listener Mailbag” on this episode of Dating While Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships. Before the break, you heard me mention sex journalist Michael Castleman. Most recently, I shared portions of my Facebook Live conversation with Michael. He had a lot of thoughts to share … including this one:
(EPISODE EXCERPT)
MICHAEL CASTLEMAN
And you know, as you get older, your eyes go bad, your hearing goes bad, you can’t smell as well as you used to, you don’t taste as well as you used to. But the one sense that does not diminish with age is the sense of touch.
And so, as other senses start to fade out, the sense of touch remains extremely acute and some people say even becomes more acute with age. And since lovemaking is really about mutual loving touch, the older you get, the more fun you can have, as long as you let go of the idea that sex is about intercourse, because when you get older, intercourse becomes increasingly problematic.
Older men have erection issues, older women have vaginal lubrication and dryness issues and at a certain point in the 50s and people’s 60s they just start thinking my god, you know, even with Viagra this is like a hassle trying to accomplish intercourse. Let’s not do that anymore. Let’s play in all the other ways that you can, and sex therapists even have a word for it — that you let go of intercourse and you embrace what they call outercourse, which is everything but, and there’s a whole lot of wonderfully marvelous fun things that are open to lovers who just give outercourse a chance.
(EPISODE EXCERPT ENDS)
LAURA STASSI
That prompted one listener to tell me that overall, he found Michael interesting and insightful. However …
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
Thanks, caller, for sharing. Sex is a topic I’ll continue to explore …because I’m learning there’s a fairly large spectrum of experiences and attitudes. Plus, I happen to find sex fun to talk about.
So. Maybe you remember the episode Anger Management. I noted studies that show as people get older, they get happier. But that doesn’t mean it comes naturally or easily … especially if we go through a later-in-life romantic split. That’s a permanent course change, and it can lead to emotions that can be very destructive.
I interviewed two people on that episode, including my high school friend Bill.
(EPISODE EXCERPT)
LAURA STASSI
We’ve kept in touch over the years, mainly through social media. He knows I love music and that I’ve been through some stuff. Bill loves music and he’s been through some stuff, too. One day, he sent me a song that to me sounds angry. But Bill finds it motivational.
BILL
I think heavy metal music is rage in itself. But I think that I find some of the heavy that I listen to — you know, you’re just enjoying the workout, you’re not even paying attention to the lyrics. And I was listening to Pandora, I don’t know, iHeart radio, something, and this song came on and I was like, I’m going to go home and search those lyrics. So “Take Back Your Life,” by Disturbed, just became like an anthem. And I actually printed the lyrics so that I could read them on more occasions.
The lyrics are just: Take back your life. You got to let them know you won’t be denied. Take back your life. Time to take it back again. Make it worth reminding yourself. Don’t let this moment pass you by. You know, it’s just like — don’t sit there and watch it fall apart. There is no one coming to save you. You’ve got to make your stand now. Stop bleeding from a broken heart and take time to let go of what used to be, now.
I mean, is that not separation, anxiety, divorce, rage, with beautiful lyrics?
(EPISODE EXCERPT ENDS)
LAURA STASSI
I also talked with a recently divorced woman we called Anne.
(EPISODE EXCERPT)
LAURA STASSI: This is what it sounds like inside an event space designed to help people get some rage out.
(Sounds of glass breaking and shouting)
LAURA STASSI
I’m with a woman in her early 50s. She works in higher ed. She told me her therapist recommended she get in touch with her anger. So we’re throwing bottles and drinking glasses against a concrete wall. I’m happy to lend a hand — and a sledgehammer.
(Sounds of hitting object)
That’s us, beating up a car. To be honest, it was pretty beat up to begin with. Still, all in all, our mild version of raging felt good.
(EPISODE EXCERPT ENDS)
LAURA STASSI
This episode struck a chord. One woman wrote: “Really appreciated your show. I too had a hard time getting to anger, likely in part because I have spent 30 years not getting angry over things that were NOT huge. My therapist was so frustrated! But at that stage I had the attitude of, he’s left and says there’s absolutely nothing I can do.’ I didn’t want to torment myself, like I saw my mother do when her marriage ended.
And, from another listener: Totally connected with Bill and Anne and their stories. I was divorced 5 years ago and even after years of therapy, have moments of frustration and anger. Like Bill, attending a men’s support group has been helpful. My song this week was “I Don’t Care Anymore,” from Phil Collins. Phil used many of his songs to process his divorce … and made money off his expressed hurt. Smart guy.” End quote.
Speaking of anger, I got a lot of it … from a lot of you … last fall. It was all about comments I was making as co-host of Slate’s Golden Bachelor recap podcast. Now, I’ve already done an entire Dating While Gray episode talking about that controversy. No need for me to rehash. I will note, however, that I’m getting emails and comments on social media asking me what I think about the Golden Bachelorette.
Well, Slate is not doing a recap podcast, if you haven’t noticed. So I’m going to keep my feelings to myself. Except, I will admit … I’m not watching the show. Sorry, it does seem to be a bit more rooted in reality. But at the end of the day, it’s a TV show. I’d much rather do a deep dive into the real-real of older-adult dating … my own experiences and living vicariously through all of you. I love hearing from you, and there’s so much more two explore … including these two tips.
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
LISTENER VOICE MAIL
END CREDITS
Dating While Gray’s audio production and mix is by Steve Lack: Audio. Theme music by D. Peterschmidt. Please like and follow Dating While Gray wherever you get podcasts. That way, you’ll never miss an episode. And, if you’re so inclined, leave a review letting everyone know what you love about us. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com. That’s where you can find Bonus Content, along with links to send me questions, comments, tips, and true stories – through email and voice mail. You know I love hearing from you. You can also sign up for the free Dating While Gray e-newsletter, delivered most Fridays to your inbox.
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I’m Laura Stassi. Thanks so much for listening.
Episode transcripts are posted on the Dating While Gray website before they are thoroughly proofread. The audio of this episode is the authoritative record. For terms of use and permissions, please email laura@datingwhilegray.com.
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